Coffee Break: Concorde's Birthday and Aviation in Venezuela

Season 2, Episode 1 | JANUARY 21ST, 2026

SUMMARY

Altitude Season 2 opens with a reflective and forward-looking episode that bridges the past, present, and future of commercial aviation. The episode marks the 50th anniversary of Concorde, the supersonic aircraft that redefined engineering ambition, speed, and technological limits, examining its history, legacy, and lasting influence on the industry. In contrast, it explores the recent evolution of aviation in Venezuela—its structural challenges, current realities, and the potential path to recovery of a sector critical to national connectivity and economic development. Together, these perspectives invite a broader reflection on what aviation has achieved, where it stands today, and what it may still become.

TRANSCRIPT

Welcome to Altitude. Fasten your seatbelts, we're about to take off. Let's talk seriously about aviation. Hello, good morning to everyone in 2026 as we begin our second season of the Altitud podcast. As we told you at the end of last year, this season we are going to innovate a little and we are going to make podcasts with a more agile way of transmitting the information and knowledge that the three of us have with more than 100 years of experience. We always take into account all the ideas and comments sent by many of our followers through social platforms, through LinkedIn, through the email that some have also sent us. And so we are going to start today, we are going to do a podcast in coffee format with two very important topics. And it is very important to mention that today, when this podcast is released, is the 50th birthday of the first two Concord flights. It is something iconic in our aviation world. I don't know what you think of this. I think this topic that you reminded us about, Fabricio, is super important. And well, we're off to a great start with the second season of this podcast. We have, I would say, Nico, Arturo, good morning to everyone and happy new year to all our followers as well. We start the year at supersonic speed with the 50th anniversary of this great airplane that for many is the most aesthetic in the history of aviation and without a doubt it has reason to be so due to its beautiful aerodynamics. An airplane that marked an era in our industry. I want to tell you a little about the background of the Concorde. It is an aircraft that was born in the context of the post-war technological race. In the late 1950s and early 1960s, the governments of France and the United Kingdom signed a treaty to jointly develop a supersonic transport aircraft through two very Ciudad Aviation companies, which over time became aerospace and eventually ended up being Airbus and the British Aerospace Company in alliance with Rolls Royce for the propulsion part, the famous Olympus engines in which SNECMA participated. So a project that was born as a Franco-British initiative. The program took practically the entire 1960s to develop and finally on March 2, 1969, the first prototype of the Concord took off from Toulouse. It was an expensive program that included many noise certification issues, a very loud plane for those of us who were lucky enough to ever hear it. I remember as a child, I still ran to the roof of the house, the windows and doors vibrated, right? And it was also a small plane. Do you remember that we went there and that we saw it there when we were at the Farm, at the Air Show, there in Paris, at the Bourget, that we put several photos and it is a small plane, it is not as big as the magnitude of the technology? You're absolutely right, in fact, if you remember some of the photos and we commented that it looked like a tube, a very DC fuselage. The small windows, because for speed reasons I have to put very small windows. Frankly, the plane, and it is a paradox, is a plane that if you get on and see the inside is old, it is a technological plane from 60 years ago, and if you see it from the outside it looks like a wonderful thing from the 22nd century. So this great clash between the interior and exterior of the plane, not to mention the cockpit, the super primitive cockpit, with thousands of. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, I mean, something like the Apollo 13 capsule, right? Yeah. But hey, a plane that in some way did change the course of aviation history. We are going to talk a little more about this, but sadly, an airplane that was a commercial failure was never able to really take off, now I have said literally, but finally after six months, sorry, after six years of certification, that is, first ten years to develop it, then six years to certify it, that is, it takes fifteen years to put this project from the initial design phase to the first flight, which was. On January 21, 1976, exactly 50 years ago. Correct. The certification was actually achieved in December 1975 and a few months later, on January 21, a day like today in 1976, which by the way was a Wednesday, things in life took off. Well Nico, if you tell us what they will be like. Those takeoffs were super interesting, they were simultaneous departures, exactly at 11:40 in the morning, British Airways with its Concordia on the London London Heathrow route, Bahrain and Air France at the same time from Charles de Gaulle to Rio de Janeiro via Dakar, and later routes were opened to Washington, Dules airport in 1976, and definitively in 1977 to JFK and with this it became the emblematic route of the Concordia, because it had a flight time of 3.5 hours and there was the maximization of time for the customers who took it. They built a total of 20 airplanes, right Arturo? How many planes? 20. Even though there were only 14 in commercial service, Mita the Francy, British were the only two airlines that operated this aircraft throughout its commercial life. Giving a little detail about how this plane flew, it had a cruising speed at which it was already at its maximum speed at Mach 2, between 2 and a little above, 2.4, that is, it broke the sound barrier a couple of times. When it reached this speed at Mach 1 and then Mach 2, it flew very high, it flew at 60,000 feet, to give us an idea, currently aircraft fly at a maximum of 40,000 feet. This plane flew 50% higher, where the air is thinner and therefore could, with the gigantic engines it had, develop supersonic speeds. The bad thing was that even flying at those altitudes, the supersonic boom, the noise it made when breaking the barrier and operating its powerful engines, was very high and that made it a pain to hear it pass, let's put it that way. It was then restricted to only supersonic flight when moving over the sea and that limited many routes that could have been productive. And regardless of the fact that it was a plane with a very high fuel consumption, its capacity was 100 passengers, it brought, as you say, a little pain. It was very narrow inside. Yes, you could see inside. I had the opportunity to meet him once in Lima and again here in Mexico City. The cabin, as they say, overwhelmed you with buttons and levers, everything was analog, it didn't look sophisticated at all, anyway. And inside, as Fabricio and I said, it was not so comfortable. I also remember that when I started working at Aeroméxico, in New York, at lunch time, we always went to see the planes that were there, which by the way, the only one that we were never able to get into and that we just thought about getting closer and the police were already coming and not letting us get closer, was the Al, but hey, that's another topic. To Concord. Yes, we got on and well, you saw that it really wasn't that comfortable. It was like the premier seats on the DC-9. Son, I would say even smaller. Smaller. It was tiny, like two tourist seats, a very thin aisle, because well, I insist, this plane had to be very clean aerodynamically and therefore it couldn't be chubby, or with a wide cabin, or anything like that. It was a needle, it was a flying knife. Yes, part of its problem, let's say, from a profitability point of view, is precisely about a capacity for 100 passengers, 25 rows of 4 seats each, maybe like an Embraer 190, something like that. And obviously with the costs and the very high, let's say, fuel consumption, there was no way to make it profitable, even at super premium rates, which the elite passengers, let's say, were willing to pay. Business people. How many photos have we not seen of artists getting off the Concorde, etcetera, etcetera. But it still didn't work. Hey, Arturo, a question. Why the Concorde's folding nose? That's one of the great features. Of this aircraft, because precisely to make it aerodynamic and also to avoid impacts that could damage its windshields, the nose was raised and the pilots practically, practically, because if they had some visibility, they did not see ahead when they were flying supersonic, but since the plane was descending, it was necessary in the initial stage of flight, in the takeoff and in the climb, and in the descent and landing, obviously they had to be able to see impeccably and then the nose was lowered so that they appeared, let's say, The windshields were already complete and they could perform all their maneuvers without problem. I remember, and seeing many photos of the aircraft, that it had a super pronounced flare, much more than a commercial airplane today. It did take off with a high angle of climb and it looked impressive, because it did leave the ground in a very different way than traditional airplanes, which were a little slower, more deliberate. And, Fabricio, who really operated it and what operational agreements were there with the Concords? Well, it was very interesting. In particular, at some point it was mentioned, it was rumored, that Pan Am, which was the iconic airline at that time that we talked about with the launch of the 747, was going to be animated. Even searching in the cyber world we find renders of the Concorde with Panama colors, etc. That never happened. There was also a sketch of an order from Iran Air, at the time Iran Air created a great airline, today that Iran is in the news again, it had placed an order, they finally canceled it. But lately I say, and Arturo already told us, the large operators that were Air France and British had a couple of agreements that were very interesting, especially the one they concluded with Braniff, this Texan airline, back in the late 70s, both British Airways and Air France established an agreement that was called exchange, which was a truly unique agreement in the history of aviation. It was like the pininos also of the alliances, speaking of that. Right, right. And here what happened is that the British plane arrived from London to Washington, the Air France plane arrived from Paris to Washington with its crews. There a kind of alchemy happened where the crews of the European airlines disappeared, the Braniff crews appeared, the plane's registration was changed because the FAA did not certify foreign supersonic aircraft. So there was a kind of virtual transfer of ownership of the plane only for the duration of the trip between Washington, Dulles Airport and DFW. The documentation on board was changed, all the Yepes in all that stuff, it was removed, the North American documentation was uploaded, the license plate was changed with a sticker and the flight operated subsonic. Furthermore, to make matters worse, that is, after all this regulatory circus they did not allow it to operate supersonic because of what Arturo already mentioned previously, mainly due to noise issues. So every time that exchange took place, they had to do all this stuff and obviously it was something that was short- lived, but it remains inscribed in the history of aviation as one of the pioneers of the topic of alliances. But also a pioneer, but he was. It also showed the glamor of aviation, nothing more, because it wasn't very useful, right? People wanted to fly on the Concorde and it was a good idea for Brani to enter into this agreement as well. What the governments of France and England wanted was to promote the plane more and if the plane was not successful in the United States, it was not going to be successful anywhere. The interesting thing is that the planes registered Fox and Gulf of France and United Kingdom respectively, here suddenly appeared as registered Nectar, when in reality that registration was an almost virtual registration. So that was very interesting. The other thing, sorry, I was going to comment that there is an urban legend that there was a Braniff plane somewhere between white and orange, painted a Concorde. It is not true, that plane never existed, it only existed in graphics, in scale models, I have one well stored there, but it never existed in real life. The one that was painted, in fact in two colors, was that of British Airways and Singapore Airlines, a very iconic plane because it had on one side, on the left side, the British logo and on the right side the Singapore logo, that is, a hybrid livery. This in fact started before Braniff's, it started in 77, it was a joint venture project where they operated jointly, mixing their traffic rights on this London Bahrain route, which was the initial one for the Concorde British, they gave it an extension to Singapore. And what was the service on board, Fabricio? It was a super luxury service, mixing now that. The great hospitality that characterizes Singapore Airlines, a service of another level. The speed was not what was expected because it could not fly much over the sea given the airway or airways it used. So it really was more of a glamor flight, as you said Nico, than a flight where speed was the main objective. These routes that you mentioned at the beginning, also seen from today's point of view, The Network Planning, sound very strange because today we were thinking 25 years after the plane practically stopped operating, because Bahrain doesn't look much compared to Doha, with Dubai, with Abu Dhabi, Rio de Janeiro, well compared to Sao Paulo, for example, well neither. However, back then the logic was that those were the routes that made sense. The other great Concord campaign was curiously through Pepsi. In 1996 Pepsi decided to use the Concorde for a global advertising campaign and the one who won the contract was Franz. They painted the entire plane blue, I don't know if anyone remembers that, and even. Now they sell it as an iconic little plane for those who collect airplanes like you, right Fabricio? Exactly, you probably have it there, there's probably one or two parked copies there. Exact. And there was an issue with the painting, right? Yeah. Arturo, can you tell us a little about what happened there with that painting? Well, the thing is that the Concord, when flying supersonic, the color absorbed more heat than expected. When flying supersonic, the fuselage became very hot and well, this meant that the plane could not fly at Mach 2, it had to fly limited above Mach 1, but it did not reach Mach 2. And well, they ended up removing this paint after a few flights. And well, yes, as you say, it was nothing more than an anecdote within the very interesting history of this plane. Hey Arturo, tell us a little about the operation in Latin America, because we talk a lot about Bahrain, we talk about Europe, the United States, but it also has history in Latin America, right? Well, especially in Mexico, because in reality to the rest of Latin America, except Rio de Janeiro, they only flew charter flights here to Mexico. Yes, for four years he flew regular flights here to Mexico City on a route that was Mexico Washington Paris and evidently Her Franz did it and that is where we all remember, all of Mexico City knew what time the Concord arrived or took off, even when it took off towards Lake Texcoco, you could hear here in the city the noise it made when taking off. We all went out to see it or even check the time, because it was a plane that operated with priority through air traffic control and practically all the time it flew on schedule, so it was very exact, we said the Concord is on time again. This was for just four years, because yes, the route had to be canceled in '82, the last flight on November 1, due to lack of profitability. I would like to tell you an anecdote. When I worked at Aeroperúrate, we had to fly to Lima and the plane stayed parked there for two or three days, I don't remember, in which all the passengers, apparently elderly millionaires, traveled to Machu Picchu, anyway, and came back and the plane stopped there. Imagine what that would cost. And well, as I was responsible for the operation at Aeroperúrate, I had to enjoy the plane those three, four days, talk with the pilots, the flight attendants, and see the level of catering service on board that they had. Anyway, I met it face to face, it was a very pleasant experience, because if it was a plane that we were all amazed to see and I had it there, now it was within reach. My hand and a very safe plane. Arturo, in general terms, until sadly that, that fateful day July 25, 2000. Yes, geez, this Air France accident, which was really the only accident this plane had and unfortunately it was fatal. After that, the plane was evidently stopped by Francisco, by British, to modify it, because we all have in our minds that photograph of the plane taking off, catching fire. What happened here is that the plane, during its takeoff run, lifted one of the wheels, a sheet of metal that had become detached from a Continental DC-10 that had taken off a few minutes before. When lifting the sheet, it cracks two of the tires, and these tires, their waste, their debris, breaks part of the wing, impacts the fuel tank that had not yet been reinforced, and that causes it to break, catch fire, the engine loses power, the temperature was very high and well, when the plane lost power, the pilots acted impeccably, but they did not have much to do. It is a plane that, when it turned on and took off, was already on fire, because it didn't have much margin. This plane needed everything to work perfectly. I insist, the plane fails to gain altitude and falls minutes later on a hotel that was there in the path of the runway. The 100 passengers, the 9 crew members and 4 people on the ground who were in this hotel there in the trajectory die. The plane stops, as I said, the fuel tanks are reinforced so that the same thing would not happen in a later event, the tires are also reinforced, but really, let's say that what caused the accident, the main factor is that this plane was flying very, very close to the operational limit it had. And then here we all learned as aviation, something fundamental, that safety is not in great extreme technology, but in the margin of safety in the cushion that an airplane has, so that when something fails, it can still recover and continue flying or abort takeoff. And later in 2001, it returned to service, but with the impact of September 11, the increase in all costs and the aging of the fleet already accelerated its end and the last flights were that of Air France on May 31, 2003 and that of British on October 24, 2003. I remember just now that you were talking about the accident, Arturo, which was a very shocking moment for those of us who have always followed aviation issues. And it is very sad that it was one. Spaceship, we could not think that it could have an accident of that magnitude. And the image of the plane, well now, breaking up in flight that is captured there by several witnesses, because it was a plane that everyone turned to see and well, it left a mark on all of us. Yes, well, the Concord really was an unprecedented feat of engineering and was the only regularly operated supersonic airliner for a quarter of a century. I know that the Russians had it there, I don't remember what type they had it, which was also 144. 144, like this. But it was never so iconic. Copycat they told each other. That pretty girl had in front of her, right? Yes, they shot her. But it was never as iconic as this. So, with a lot of respect and good memories, today we celebrated and that's why we put on the mañanitas, the 50th anniversary of this. Plane, Great plane and as we said, great timing of this first podcast of season 2, because it practically coincides with the 50th anniversary of the release of this wonderful plane. And well, now moving on to the second part of this inaugural podcast, of this new stage, we decided to talk a little, given the current political circumstances of aviation in Venezuela, here, Venezuela, which today is in the eyes of the whole world. We started to talk first about the history of aviation in Venezuela, then how Venezuela and its aeronautical industry have developed within Chavismo and the time of Nicolás Maduro. And then we started to think about what Venezuelan aviation could be like once all the calms, sorry, all the political waters end up calming down. Start off Fabricio, with everything that is the history of Venezuelan aviation, please. Yes Arturo, of course. And also a topic that for me personally is very exciting, because my first major international alliance project, let's say, thirty-odd years ago, was between Mexicana and Avenza, a Venezuelan airline on the Mexico Panama Caracas route. And I had the opportunity to visit Venezuela on several occasions, a wonderful country that at that time, in the early 90s, still had aviation, a very dynamic industry, with great players. Surely you will remember Arturo Nico a viaza with the DC-10, the same venza viaza with the DC-10 included, and now we are going to talk about it a little more, a 747 painted on one side by KLM and the other by Biazza, because KLM had a shareholding in roads in the 70s. The other major Venezuelan airline, Aeropostal, which in fact was the first airline in Venezuela, Venezuela that at the end of the 80s still had a reasonably robust passenger movement above the 10 million passengers that was the peak, reached its historic peak in 1989 and from there it went down, it collapsed by giving them another number in the year two thousand, ten years, eleven years later, it fell by sixty percent to four million. With the entry of the new regime, the world of Venezuelan aviation changed for the worst, unfortunately. So, going back in history, the first major Venezuelan airline was Aeropostal. Many of us called it, between jokes and sarcasm, Aeromortal, because it was a company that unfortunately faded over time. But well, it was born as a subsidiary of the famous French Aeropostal, this company that expanded its wings in South America in the 1930s and called itself the Venezuelan Aeropostal line during the decades from the late 1930s to the 1970s, as it lived its golden stage with airplanes such as the Constellation, the Caravel, the DC-9, MD-80, flying the United States, the entire Caribbean, and South America. But starting in the 90s, like the entire Venezuelan commercial aviation industry, it went into crisis, a series of exogenous financial crises that caused airlines to go into, let's say, decline. It lost private control, it was nationalized and since then it has practically remained a paper airline. Suddenly there is a flight out there that is identified as Aeropostal, but in reality the airline has already stopped operating. For practical purposes, Viaza, which is the other major Venezuelan airline founded in 1960, the truly flag airline, as many of us knew it during the eighties and nineties, which begins precisely with a participation of Aeropostal, Avenza and KLM, as KLM mentioned that at the beginning of the seventies it is a minority partner in Viaza, but that has an important influence in the operational part and that brings this plane, this famous plane painted on one side with the previous colors of KLM still not that bright blue, but a white with a light blue line and a very very elegant navy blue on one side, on the left side and on the right side the traditional Biazza colors, that orange, especially orange and a little blue. They also bring the DC-10, another plane that KLM also operated, the DC-8, the DC-9, the same thing lately some Airbus A's come in there and actually in the 80s and 90s one of the large fleets of South America, the one from Viaza, I remember in different parts where I traveled there was always generally the DC10 from Bari and the DC-10 from Vyaza, you always saw them on one side or another with an important network. The airport that we all know as Maiquetía, the Simón Bolívar International Airport, very well located in the northeastern part of the continent, we could say that it was one of the Sinón Hopes and one of the great Focus City of South America. In the 80s and 90s the same thing, at the end of its life cycle it entered a process of financial crisis, Iberia tried to take control. Let's remember Iberia in the 90 seconds with a very expansionist strategy, trying to get involved with Aerolíneas Argentinas, trying to develop a hub in the Dominican Republic and also trying to control Viaza. There are even photos of Viaza planes already painted with the same logo as Iberia's on the fuselage, just with different colors. That's why I put a post on LinkedIn, if you see it you will see a white DC-10 that has like a drop with the Viaza colors but evoking the iconic Iberia logo. That lasted a few years until Viaza stopped operating in 97. Avenza, which I mentioned at the beginning, also a very traditional airline, founded in 1943, is owned by Pan American, which also has a long history of founding airlines in South America, among others Mexicana Aviación and a very distinguished family in Venezuela, of British origin, the Boulton family that had interests in different industries, but in particular in aviation. The same thing in the 80s, a very very active airline came to operate on the international side, DC tens and 757 was distinguished by having exceptional service on board in the business class, particularly on the Mexico route, always filled with Noritaque porcelain tableware, a super personalized service, it was said that it was like the Singapore Airlines of Latin America. Over time, it operated a lower-cost subsidiary called Servivenza, which even grew beyond what Avenza could be on its own, operating mainly 727s. 737. At some point they operated as far as Madrid with the DC-10, but the same thing, with the debacle of the 90s, the triumph of Chavismo began to decompose and in 2004 it closed its doors definitively. The last one that I want to tell you about the airlines that I have in mind, as well as references of Venezuelan aviation, is this Santa Bárbara. Santa Bárbara Airlines, also known as SBA, was born as a small provincial airline in Zulia in 1995 with a TR 42 that operated regional routes within Venezuela and to Aruba. It is an airline that, by closing Viaza and having a perspective of greater opportunity, grew outstandingly outside of Venezuela. It operated several destinations in Spain, Miami, Ecuador, Colombia with 767,300 er and also operated DC-9 and MD in a code-share scheme. With About, which was another Venezuelan domestic airline, Santa Bárbara was able to operate a little longer with many problems and recently closed its doors in 2018. That is a little bit of the perspective of the large Venezuelan airlines that today, unfortunately, only remain in the memory of the airline industry. Yes, today and well, until what happened right now in December, Venezuelan commercial aviation has always been in a phase of deep contraction, with a really strong state Venezuelan player, which I will mention in a moment, and two, three very small ones, with planes that sometimes operated, sometimes not, etc. There is a registered fleet of approximately 20 operational aircraft that are much more than a decade old and this has limited the capacity for domestic and international flights. There have been many cancellations of routes with the cessation of operations that Fabricio told us and also with the issue of many international airlines that have stopped operating in Venezuela due to the lack of access to foreign currency and the impossibility of repatriating historical income that led to many international airlines suspending flights and no longer receiving payments for what they generated in Venezuela, that is, they could no longer operate the largest airline that was now still the state airline is Conviaza, which basically had and apparently maintains domestic flights with ECO 190 airplanes, in the domestic one it operates Caracas to Maracaibo, to Por La Mar, to Barcelona, to Valencia, to Puerto Ordaz, to Tu Cúpita, among other cities and internationally connects Venezuela with destinations Cancún in Mexico, the iconic flight that put the IFA first with 190 even operated with the 340, which also had flights to Havana, to Managua, to Bridgetown in Barbados, to Moscow, to Saint Petersburg, to Guanyu in China and Tehran. These flights to Tehran and Moscow were mostly political and cargo flights, with not much information. AND. All very unstructured, right Nico? Even as Fabricio said a while ago, I remember that we said "Convías" to the airline that flies and see what happens, because it has a fixed itinerary. Everything is irregular, everything without technology, without having advanced and very political. Many of the routes I mentioned just now were more than for commercial development or to transport passengers, they were political flights and where they transported who knows what things. I also remember, I don't know if you knew or remember, of some crews of the 340 who began to get sick and have fatal diseases due to the radiation that certain planes had for what they transported to Tehran and beyond, I don't know if you remember that, about 10 years ago or so. And the 190 was his workhorse that he used mainly for domestic and regional routes, mostly also to transport passengers, but not so much. The 190 is quite small and is for connecting, but the basics. I had some 319s, a Cessna, some ATRs, but many of the planes are parked or out of service due to lack of activity or maintenance, or parts too, many of the parts were taken from one plane to another. So, that is basically the airline that they have official and the state airline that they have in Venezuela right now, although there are also three, four other airlines like Avior, like Rutaca Airlines, like Turpial, like Venezolana, which have a couple of seven hundred and thirty-seven, very old, two hundred, three hundred or MD eighty, but that operate some international domestic routes that they operated, but very, very sporadic, without fixed itineraries, etc. And regarding international airlines, due to recent tensions, some airlines, such as Iberia, Avianca, LATAM, Copa, which had operations in Venezuela, have fluctuated a lot over time, they have stopped operating, they have resumed, they have suspended operations, etc. And lately, due to the restriction that the United States placed before entering, many of the certificates and permits were revoked, I remember, for example, the European ones, Europe revoked them, etc. And structurally, aviation has also suffered a lot, for example, they have been in FW safety category 2 for years, which is the status of insufficient regulatory supervision and which also limits the international expansion of Venezuelan airlines, of local airlines. I don't know if you can tell us, Arturo, a little more about the insecurity and the operational situation in Venezuela. Well, yes, when they were demoted to category 2 by the FAA, derived from the fact that it was considered that mainly the Venezuelan aeronautical authority was no longer doing its job in an objective manner, that is, it was not supervising both the airport infrastructure and air traffic control, and of course the Venezuelan airlines were not adhering to the standards of maintenance, training and adequate operational cleanliness, since they were demoted and then now, or well, from those dates, because it is almost that they have not cared, it seems that they have not cared about maintaining those standards at competitive levels. The Venezuelan authority, Venezuelan aeronautical, is very politicized and therefore grants or removes routes, in short, everything is the government's, not so much because the standards are met or not, but because there are instructions to do so and that generates an aeronautical environment of high uncertainty, of great insecurity, and that is why there is so much reluctance to operate to and from Venezuela by many airlines already. Hey, Arturo, if we use a little bit of the magic ball that Fabricio lent you this time and we start to look forward, this way we take with optimism what is happening in Venezuela and we see with optimism, the political and economic growth of the country and the resurgence of the Venezuelan economy. What does this magic ball tell us or what do you read in the magic ball? Well yes, we will have to take as a starting point that what is developing or that appears to be developing will have to happen, that there is stability, that the waters really calm down in Venezuela in its relationship with the rest of the world, in short, because to think about a truly healthy return, it will have to be said that this will not necessarily stop being for political reasons. Aviation and the resurgence of Venezuelan aviation will occur once the risk is manageable and of course, when the numbers, finances, and profitability make sense. We thought it could be in three stages. The first of a very basic operational reopening, with a controlled risk, a tactical return, because the degradation of security in the Venezuelan aeronautical operation, well, it is not going to be resolved, whoever you want, overnight. So, well, from the outset all these requirements, these restrictions on the airspace that we currently have, will have to be removed. There will have to begin to be basic security at airports, and here I am referring more to security, to issues of probable attacks, etc., the perimeter of the airport, ground operations, in short, in this first stage the aeronautical authority will also have to begin to function in a more coherent way, which although, I insist, will have to be limited, since it will have to be at least functional. And well, what you mentioned, Nico, about the money, the minimum capacity, the guarantees that exist on the part of the Venezuelan government that if I sell a ticket in Venezuela, then the money resulting from that sale, I will be able to recover it in a way and with an appropriate exchange rate, etc., something that today, quite some time ago, stopped happening. Here we would see, sorry I interrupted you, it seems to me that one of the great drivers or levers also to reactivate aviation in Venezuela, and it is a great area of opportunity that will have to be better understood over time, is this entire diaspora. There is talk of 8 million Venezuelan women who had to flee or leave the country due to the conditions of everyone known there. And how many of them will seek to resume ties with the country? Many of them will surely return to their homeland when conditions allow it and then that market, let's say, is there latent and it will be super interesting to see, let's hope for the better, that things normalize, stabilize, as you say, it's going to take a long time, but if there is a critical mass, let's say of demand that is there to take advantage of. Doubt and also everything about the passengers that generate the investment and development of the oil industry that is so much going on, what is being talked about so much right now that the United States is going to invest again, etc., plus the geographical issue of Venezuela, which is quite interesting where it is and that could form an interesting hop there to also flow passengers between parts of the world such as Europe or the eastern United States and South America. Yes, yes, yes, in this first stage, as we would see with the crystal ball, we could think that the airlines that already know the Venezuelan market and operating short routes are going to return, Avianca perhaps Bogotá Caracas, Copa de Panamá, Iberia perhaps somewhat cautious, with few frequencies from Madrid, from Europe, few frequencies, I insist, conservative operation and Caracas as a destination, as you say, not yet as HOB or remotely as HOB. In a second stage where regulatory normalization and the economy are stabilizing, where it can be planned and not just tactically testing and once the aeronautical authority can be recognized by the FAA, by EASA also in Europe, the airport infrastructure is more reliable with the runways, the fuel, the entire handling scheme without financial arbitrariness and with clear signs of medium-term political stability, well there we already see that North American airlines could enter America United from Miami, Houston respectively, maybe Caracas or Newark, sorry, Newark to Caracas. And well, we would also think that Europe could begin to have more frequencies through Iberia Tupper, Portugal in this diaspora that you mentioned so well, Fabricio, where a very strong number of Venezuelans chose Portugal as a country of escape, let's call it that. And well, in a more regional way, Copa with an expansion and Avianca also with expansion of capacity and connections. At this stage we also see that it would still not be viable for Caracas to be a job as such, we could not think that it would compete with Panama, with Bogotá, with probably Lima, because we do see that Caracas has relative potential for it to be able to do a job. Geographically, as you already said, it is very well located, it is further north than Lima, Panama is closer to the Caribbean and the southeast of the United States than Bogotá, it has efficient distances to Europe and on paper, I insist, it could compete. In practice, Panama will still continue to win due to stability and connectivity, as will Bogotá due to scale and internal market, and Lima, which is being strengthened little by little. We don't see Caracas's problem so much in geography, it is in the trust that will have to be generated little by little in order to aspire to be a hub in Latin America. And in a final stage, a stage 3, where there is already an integration of the country, hopefully full with the rest of the world, a country risk that is already practically non-existent or normalized, since in which as a requirement there will have to be sustained political stability, legal security for foreign investment, which have consistently demonstrated that they comply with the standards of ICAO, FAA and ASA, and that there is a real economic demand, no longer just caused by the diaspora or migration, where it is already We would see Iberia strong, Air France KLM, the Middle East with Qatar Airways, Emirates, which are airlines that may not arrive first because they are not very inclined to tolerate uncertainty, but they will arrive when the environment is already perfectly shielded. This is what the three of us foresee. And well, in the domestic market in this first stage as well, since they are really surviving with these airlines that you already described with complete irregularity, in short, but starting little by little, through the own improvement of this first stage, strengthening the internal aeronautical market and beginning to be a little more regular in a second stage of the domestic one, more frequencies on trunk routes, more efficient regional planes, not the very old fleet that exists today, already with punctuality, with itineraries, technology too, Arturo. Exactly, yes, not necessarily so centralized in Caracas anymore. And well, until they reach a third stage where there will be an integration of this domestic market with the international one, the most logical model, hopefully, will be that Venezuelan airlines could count on foreign partners through join ventures, shared codes, in short, Taka Perú or LAM Perú or Grupo Abra type schemes, without. Duda will already be keeping an eye on Venezuela. Obviously we are very early in the game, there are many things left to happen, but it would also be very logical LATAM, two air groups pushed very far forward, the same IAG through Iberia, which already had an incursion many years ago in Venezuela. The location, as we mentioned, of Maiquetía for the AXL, for example, flights to Lisbon, to different parts of Europe, Spain. Wow, a natural entry or exit door, however we want to see it, for the Venezuelan market. Technology today allows us to visualize or imagine dreaming of a buoyant Caracas on the transatlantic side with narrowbot planes, which is why you said, Nico, this already very privileged location that gives it an outstanding advantage over the other hubs in the region, such as Bogotá mainly. Yes, also, not just talking about airlines, I believe that there is also a great investment opportunity from global international airport groups, such as ADP or another international airport that wants to invest in Caracas and that wants to develop the Caracas hub. I believe that there is a very interesting opportunity and that in my opinion it will enter stage 2 or 3 that you mentioned Arturo also to develop that hub with the very interesting geographical position that Maiquetía has there. I mentioned Sur because of this expansion that they have just done with the intention of purchasing the San José de Quito airport, Costa Rica, Quito, airports in Brazil, airports in Colombia, they are already invested in Puerto Rico. Clearly there is an opportunity there. What is a fact is that the three of us agree that Venezuelan aviation is not going to return suddenly, that if conditions align, and I hope they do, first the region will return, then the United States and Europe, and eventually the global network. Until then we can think of a Venezuela, of a Caracas that can aspire with true realism to play a more relevant role on the aerial map. Well let's hope so. The potential will obviously be when socio-political and economic conditions return. Today, unfortunately, that is not the case, it will take time, but you have to start somewhere. And I hope, wishing you all the best, that Venezuelan aviation will re-emerge and return to that golden era that one day was. Exactly, with big names and great players. Involved Well, thank you very much, we have reached this point today, thank you very much for joining us in Altitud. Remember that in this second season we took another step and will begin to attract guests who are experts in aeronautical topics. The first interview is coming out very soon and the truth is that very good things are coming. Follow us on our networks because we are going to be sharing previews and some surprises that we are sure you will like. We'll hear from you in the next episode. Good morning everyone. Thank you all for following us and remember to check our social networks as well and see the photos we have been posting so that they demonstrate a lot of what we talk about here as well. And congratulations to Concord this January 21st, which celebrates 50 years since its first flights, a great date without a doubt. Thank you for flying with Altitud, follow us on our social networks and visit our website. We are waiting for you on our next flight.