Analysis Roundtable (now also in video)

Season 2, Episode 2 | February 4, 2026

Executive Summary

• Why it matters:

The global aviation industry enters 2026 amid heightened volatility, geopolitical risk, cost pressure, and structural change. Visibility is limited — strategic discipline is not optional.

• Key themes discussed:

  • Fuel & geopolitics: Energy prices and geopolitical flashpoints remain the single most destabilizing variable for airline economics.

  • Operational risk & airspace uncertainty: NOTAMs, GPS interference risks, and regional security alerts demand stronger contingency planning.

  • Capacity constraints: Major hubs — particularly Mexico City — are structurally capped, limiting growth regardless of demand.

  • Industry consolidation: Airline groups and alliances are strengthening as scale, balance sheet resilience, and bargaining power become decisive.

  • Low-cost model under pressure: The traditional LCC model is evolving; hybrid strategies and consolidation are accelerating.

• Strategic implications for leadership:

  • Growth without infrastructure realism is illusory.

  • Scale and partnerships increasingly determine cost resilience and negotiating power.

  • Regulatory and airspace constraints are now board-level strategic risks, not operational footnotes.

  • Winners will be those who adapt faster, consolidate smarter, and execute with discipline.

    
    

• What’s new:

This episode launches Altitude’s Analysis Roundtable in video format, enabling deeper, more transparent strategic debate for industry decision-makers. • Bottom line: A clear-eyed, unsentimental assessment of where aviation is heading — and what CEOs and Boards must confront in 2026 and beyond.

English Transcript

What a pleasure to finally be able to meet, because as we had offered in this new modality already in a more inperson, more intimate way between you and us, we are going to start with this talk with Fabricio, with Nico, in which we will be able to discuss various topics at the start of the year and in this our second chapter of altitude 2026. Well, we start if you like and we start with what, what do you think if we talk about the global panorama, what does 2026 look like? The truth is that you see a horizon, it is seen half blurry. The crystal ball remained hidden. The crystal ball. I believe that it is already complicated, with uncertainty, but I also believe that there are great opportunities that are on the horizon. So let's start with that topic, if you like. I give you what I have seen and what I have read in general. And as we said, what is happening regarding the issue of fuel is totally volatile, which as we know hits you hard, that right now it is at very low levels of 50 dollars whatever can happen talking about fuel in Venezuela, which can supposedly lower it even further, and in others. Parts of the world Iran. Same and go up. And with all these things that are happening about war and uncertainty, that if they attack a country, that if they attack another country, that if they send soldiers from one to the other, well, as we know, here just someone sneezes and literally all of them fall into red. And more or less on average, do you know better about this? The fuel that represents 20%, 15%? A lot more. Like until 40 to 30? Forty? Forty, according to the airline, according to the technology, easily above 30. Yes, no, because it is a vital, determining factor that will have to be monitored. And right now, as I said, with everything that is happening, with the wars, with the threats of war, because at the end of the day until now. Thanks, the one from Ukraine, Russia is going for four years. It's like that, like that. We didn't forget it, but it's already there. Loss. Lost, because now there is the other one in the country, in the Atlantic. No, well in war at least. Commercial that was warned. Commercial that was warned. And who knows what impact that could have. Having in Latin America also, that if they enter, that if they don't enter and all that hits. So I think it is something that if we see what the trends are in the airline industry globally. It's like we said, the magic ball stayed locked up there and is very dusty because I don't know, I don't understand anything about the magic ball right now, like I can't clearly see what could happen, because every time I wake up and watch the news and do my news hour in the morning, there is something new and a new madness, right? So I think that. And as he said here, as soon as someone sneezes and they hit you, right? A good example of this uncertainty is what is happening, what is happening right now with this famous NOTAM that came out for the issue of Venezuela, derived from the issue of Venezuela, sorry, and now in Latin America, mainly in Mexico and Central America, that the North American government issued one. Well, it is not a directive. Tell us what a NOTAM is for him. Public, a name in English, is a notice for pilots, a notice to Airmen, in which they are given information and also suggestions on how they should proceed. And this NOTAN, to differentiate it very well from what happened a few days ago in Venezuela, is not a ban on flying in Mexican or Central American airspace, nor does it affect and it really does not affect. It is aimed mainly at North American airlines, as an alert more than anything else, an alert that takes into account the entire aeronautical community, as happened in Venezuela. There, yes, when the possibility of the removal of President Nicola s Maduro was being raised, then the North American government prohibited its airlines from flying in airspace X, which even reached it. Let's hit Puerto Rico, even the Caribbean, right? Many people were stuck there on their way back from the end of the year holidays. The scenario of the operation they carried out could extend beyond the airspace of Venezuela. And that ban was taken by the rest of the airlines in the world, but not because they were forced, but because they know something, something is going to happen. Arturo, sorry I interrupted you, there was talk of a JetBlue that was about to collide with a military plane. Is that true? Yes, in quotes, because they were really differences of 2, 3,000 feet, which is almost a kilometer of distance, a reasonable separation, but it was magnified given the circumstances of that time, because in addition the NOTAM had already been issued and in any case this closeness, because it was not a near collision, occurred and was magnified here in Mexico and in Central America, what is happening is something similar, but not as critical, because well, the uncertainty there is about what is going to happen. If there really could be an operation, I would not like to think similar to the one in Venezuela, but something that could cause, especially the loss of GPS signals, which as we know, the aircraft were now followed more by satellites than by terrestrial radio aids. Many years ago, all airplanes followed airways that were outlined through terrestrial radio aids, now satellites are practically always used. So what was warned was simply to be attentive because that signal could be lost, we would block it, says the North American government, and therefore it could be lost and that does not mean any risk. Of course, we must be very clear in air traffic control, because the aircraft will simply be guided by ground radio aids. As plan B. As a plan B, which is there, but it is an uncertainty, we don't know, there are many people who wonder, hey, can I fly between Mexico? I have been asked, Can I fly between Mexico and the United States or does it only apply to you? The lines of one country and not another? American or not, better flight with a Mexican. There is a lot of confusion, but this is the reality, what you are telling us. Exactly, yes, it is not something so serious, if anything, if they start some operation in Mexico, Central America, then they will surely issue new notams, but right now it is simply a waters, because that type of navigation aid signal could be lost. Hey Arturo, and speaking of navigation, I have received very good comments and echoes from the eastern chapter of the Airspace Labyrinth over Mexico City, I think it opened many eyes, it was a very interesting debate. And speaking then of this particular topic, it leads me to reflect on the ICM, this, let's say, proposal that arises, it seems to me that it is from Aerome xico, from Andre s Conesa, to reinvent the ICM a little, Make it a terminal that could accommodate much more capacity, perhaps 50% more. The truth is that it sounds super interesting and very good, but is it really viable given all this coexistence with the AIF, etc.? Well look, yes, we really must start from the premise that the Mexico City airport is saturated. It is saturated as we know it today, it is saturated both because of the navigation design or the concordance of the different aircraft in the airspace surrounding the airport, but mainly saturated because there are no longer enough positions and platforms for there to be more operations per hour. To give you service. To give you service, anyway. So, we are growing, if nothing is done at the airport in the coming years or in the coming months, then each day that passes we are destined to continue with an airport that will no longer grow. We had 43 million. 44 million. 44 million last year against 50 in 2019. Exactly. It is almost a 10% decrease, but forget it, the decrease is that you know that you will no longer be able to grow. By canceling CETESCOCO and this scheme not being as functional as Santa Lucí a, Toluca, in short, Mexico City, we are sentenced, if you will allow me the word, to not grow, to the fact that aviation in the AICM and the different airlines that operate there will not be able to grow. So, the proposal that seems very interesting to me is why don't we take advantage of that entire area in the east of the country. Airport that is not used as much? Apart from maintenance, right? Hangars. There is a presidential hangar that no longer has a presidential plane because the Navy, there is the Navy, the exangar of. Aeromarca, the abandonment, the FGR is used. There is the same Aerome xico maintenance hangar, which I would understand, since it would have to be modified or relocated. The Mexico airport has a lot of land. But where the big and very cool Aerome xico hangar is towards Texcoco, there is still plenty of room to make another bay, right? Which is where this whole cemetery of abandoned aircraft is and well, requisitioned or I don't know what, but they are rotting there, that whole area could be used. In the proposal that Aerome xico makes through its director to create platforms, taxiways, contact positions and give it oxygen, he even mentioned that it could reach 70. 75 million annually. Here we will have to be careful because it will have to coexist with Santa Lucí a and Toluca and only in this way can the number of operations in Mexico really increase. Because simply increasing or improving the ground infrastructure, let's put it this way, of that airport could not give this capacity almost double what is being operated now. Everything would have to be modified in the way the airspace is operated and the airspace is managed, it is managed in both Toluca, Santa Lucí a and Mexico City. But the metropolitan area is interesting, and I would really see it right now as the only viable option to give oxygen to an airport that is hanging, that is truly doomed, as I said a moment ago. And that inevitably brings us to the topic of the moment, which is the ICM remodeled into a permanent work, almost for the World Cup. Indeed, it has generated an outstanding expectation, I believe artificial, if I may use the word, because the airport, as you have said, is saturated, it is maximized. It has been said and repeated that there will not be more slots, there will be one or two here that are released at their discretion, but returning to this scheme, let's not talk about 62, but 53, it seems that it is already a thing of the past and that we can forget about it. The average capacity of the ICM today is therefore maximized, it is exceeded. Everything that is being done is very good to generate a better experience. For the passenger, more cosmetic, which is really viable to give it greater viability. Also, there are not that many games that you are going to see here, which are. Six, something like that. In Mexico City. In Mexico City they are the three from the group stage, sixteenth, eighth, I'm not sure if they are also fourth, but I think not anymore. So there would be five games in Mexico City. Correct. Are the 20 million additional passengers soon going to arrive in that, by. Example, in Guadalajara, with the additional flights, Monterrey also Guadalajara? Charters can arrive there. Yes, large planes can arrive because they have somewhere to accommodate them. Obviously AIFA is also going to be a good relief airport, but let's not forget that today we are sanctioned by the DOT for flights from the United States, and that applies to regular flights and charter flights. So, all that movement, at least. From the United States. So, clearly they are going to arrive from other countries, without a doubt, but what is going to arrive? A little flight, another little flight, a white body here, a white body there? We're not going to see. And let's also remember that the World Cup starts in the three countries, but then everything moves to the United States. The natural movement is going to be from Mexico to the United States. And in what? That's the point. And at what price too? How will the tickets be? I was telling him about the prices. Yes, I'm taking a look at the prices of a couple of airlines for the week before and after the World Cup starts and the rates are literally double. We are talking about rates today of thousands of dollars for flights that should cost. It's going to hit the summer, no. To the people, because of course. And that's a very good point. But let me also tell you before that, I thought in my professional deformation, that some airlines would already be introducing larger teams. Mexican lines cannot do it. Both Aerome xico could change an Embraer here for a sporadic 737 or 787, live and fly they already have practically everything with 321 and what they don't have 321 I imagine it is due to operational restrictions that do not give them the range. I'm thinking of a United, an America. In a Delta that easily fits planes. More, a little bigger. 380 that you bring. Well, what I want to tell you with this is that no increase in the average capacity in the ICM is detected today. No, And also, that is, they are going to. Be the same planes at double or triple rates. And if you add to that the fact that the connectivity between Santa Lucí a ICM and Mexico City is still very precarious, well the truth is, Mexico City is going to be fed only by very high yields, by passengers with very high yields, with rates, as you say, crazy. Yeah. So, for us who live in Mexico City and want to go out or have plans to vacation in the summer. Outside of the World Cup, you don't want to go to the game or anything, but you love yourself. I recommend, now I do recommend that you start making your plans from now on because all the good ones are going to be full, very expensive. Then that's it, there will be a sector of the population that is willing to pay, but they won't even find a place and those that won't will have to imagine a very, very complicated vacation. So this brings a series of not so positive aspects, that is, it's good that there is the World Cup, it's good that Mexico is a showcase to the world, but I would say, let's manage expectations and be realistic and not think that this is going to save us or be a panacea, because definitely in my opinion it is not going to do so. Listen, and talking a little bit like that, Fabricio and Arturo from Mexico, how do Fabricio see it, how do you see the 1st thing about flying and yes, long live it was announced. A great topic, which is a great one. Theme, we haven't played yet because when it happened it was just when we closed. From the first season. Season. But how do they see it, how do you see it? I think the timing was super interesting because it was practically on Christmas Eve, no one expected it, no one was like that 1. It's even the kind of news that you would expect they would have waited for all the people to return from vacation, but no. And I think that the success was also that it is a time when aviation issues are very quiet, so it monopolized all the spotlights. Look, I see it as something normal, I see it as a great opportunity to position Mexican aviation in the place it deserves, because for a long time, we have talked about it among ourselves, we have been losing presence. If we go back 30 years, they then criticize us for talking a lot about the old glories of Mexican aviation, but it is true, you were talking about a Mexican, an Aerome xico in the 90s and they were the big, big airlines on the continent. There was a Barik, there was a LAN and we, that is, in Mexico we have talked about how the ASM has lost its position against Bogota , against Panama, against Peru. There it is against Peru, which is growing very strongly. If we talk about this famous Focus City in Maiquetí a, it will be a pole of spectacular growth. So how good is it that we can have a strong aviation, those of us who have been in this industry for 30 out of 30-odd years, how many Mexican airlines have we not seen fall by the wayside? And obviously there is an Interjet out there, the Mexican version 1, Aeromar, Aviaxa, twice Aztec, Taesa, you name it, the same Aerome xico in Chapter Eleven, it's good that they were able to come out stronger, but it also entered a restructuring process. So two strong airlines under the same umbrella as planned, which had a lot. Be careful to mention that it is not a merger. No, I think the correct simile is, for example, an IAG in Europe that has British, has Iberia, Iberia. And it has Iberia, it has Iberia and Vueling. It has Erling, it could be KLM, France too. In some way, yes, or a group opens with Avianca and Gol, well, they have their brands, they have their loyalty programs, they have their management, even Avianca has just made changes in the independent management of all this, so it seems to me that they are following that trend, what does it give you to get together at, let's say, a corporate level, it gives you much more financial muscle, it is not the same to sit Vivi Volaris separately with the fleets, with the mros, with the global distribution systems, with the airports, with the banks, with the teachers, anyway. With a magnitude of 160. I think it's a 1 equals 3, or really. And if you are going to buy 10 airplanes or you are going to rent 10 airplanes and I another 10, it is not the same that we go for 20, the favorable conditions that we are going to get versus the. 10 and 10, in addition to being completely consistent fleets, are the same fleets, so it will give them an advantage. Some economies of scale, operating philosophy at least in that one. Own characteristics, your. Very well designed identity and let's remember that. Many years ago, I couldn't tell you for sure how many, but easily, maybe a dozen years ago there had already been an attempt by Viva to buy Volaris, I think at that time Televisa and the Carso group were still involved and it didn't prosper. So it doesn't surprise me, it seems to me that it is a trend in the industry to come together, to do things. And talking and talking about trends and groups, what are you saying about the industry too? Allow me Nico, but you mentioned the timing, it was an explosion of news and now how quiet he remained silent, what will be an issue, the regulatory authorizations will surely look. Destructuring the people who are going to manage this, we had to be in Sintra, you will remember, I mean, it was a different reality, it was a different logic, but from how you take people out of day-to-day management to start managing the long term, managing the two aspects, it is very complicated to set up the holding company, to obtain all the first ones, not that, the. Approvals, because they were very clear when they mentioned that there is no approval yet and. It's going to take time. Approvals, as it was said in plural, which is also going to say the DOT, that of OJ, not just here my. The expectation is that they are going to try it, they will surely have their caveats there, as they say, their agreements, they will possibly have to give up some slots at the ICM, because it is a completely closed airport as we have just talked about, but other airports are actually open. The ICM seems to me to be a source of concern and one of. The things that I gave and I don't know if I was wrong, is precisely on the subject of slots. It could be that some slots were released, I'm not saying to give them to someone else, but among them to increase destinations, I don't know. Since, well, if I go to Guadalajara five flights a day and so do you, and now we are going to rationalize it into 7, which I don't know if it is the circulation, well there are three slots that could be occupied in a better way, let's call it that. Look, conceptually yes, although if we talk about independent, autonomous companies, I wouldn't see it clearly and I think it would be part of the rules of the game, it's up to everyone. They are going to prevent them too. Yes, I think that would be reasonable. But having said that, two things occur to me. First, the growth it is having, we are no longer talking about Monterrey, which makes up the airport that, in the last two, three years, has grown more proportionally by far. What two world-class terminals are doing in Guadalajara, they are already talking about the third runway and that there is space. If there is space and not only that, positioning, privilege of Guadalajara as potential, Joba to the Pacific, to the entire West Coast, Central US. If the ICM falls asleep in the five years that we are talking here, it will be like Guadalajara has already gotten its ball. That's how it works. No, no, but tremendous potential really came to Guadalajara. And who is standing there? Volaris, very good, Viva has invested and Aerome xico maintains a presence that could grow. So I think good things are coming and for me it is great news and. We will have to follow up, because yes, right now they kept quiet, but I think they will have to soon. I think it is one of the news and something that is going to develop. It will have to be, it will have to be. We'll talk more about that. And also speaking of mergers and low-cost companies that are getting together, I was very struck by what is happening or what is going to happen and is happening this year between Alijan, Tison, Country, which are two low-cost airlines that are getting together. So, looking at these two examples, I see a trend, a beginning of a trend of airlines that are coming together to be stronger and serve the market AND also, I don't know if to survive. To survive within the market within this, because we also have companies that are going to teach each other how to serve certain markets, for example soundcountry that already serves the market with Mexico, very beachy, very beachy, to LEN that has never flown outside the United States with the potential it has with its equipment to do so. So I think it is quite interesting and it is one of the trends that I am also seeing at a global level, more regionally perhaps, well, in Europe we have seen the ITA, etc., etc., but this particular example comes to mind. Yes, I would also tell you that the whole issue of low cost in the United States is like being called into question, we have seen how the model has lost strength, you have very, very strong players, Delta, American, United, American even that is having a hard time competing against Delta and against the current United. I have to half reinvent Spirit's theme in Chapter Eleven that entered, exited and quickly re-entered Chapter Eleven. There is a lot of talk about a Frontier being able to acquire Spirit, perhaps it will happen and that is what you say, it is becoming stronger in a competitive environment and how. Reinvent yourself but together. And in that reinvention there is also the example of Bris, right? Yes of course. Well, well, we know this company was born just five years ago in a market niche of poorly served secondary airports, little served by the rest of the airlines in the United States. Very domestic, which is now considering flying internationally, it already has authorization from the. FAA has even launched flights to Cancun. Exactly, they started to Cancu n, a little flight, they fly. From Norfolk, from New Orleans, from Charleston, that is, very, very cities. One would think that they don't have the market, the market width to. But they have it and it is working for them. Well, there is this David Nileman who knows this and has done very well. Well, he founded JetBlue, he founded Azul. Exactly, he is a guy who really knows this and is getting between the Legacy and the low-cost ones, as I would say in a very buttery way because they are doing well. They will also start the Dominican Republic, they just finished. Place an order for 40 more aircraft. 220 300 transitioning from their Sembra Air to the 220 and the 220 to only 220, which gives them a commonality of cockpit, training, pilots, maintenance, etc. It is a successful formula for low-cost ones and I really think it will work very well for them. Perhaps the only potential risk right now is that the 220 has had very strong engine problems, just like the 320. 321. But once it has matured and that plane becomes much more reliable, it will find some market niches, as you said, outside the United States, super interesting, with the perfect size, the right size, the 220. 300, it has an exceptional range, it is a great plane and they can leverage it very well. So they have already found that niche and I hope someone in Mexico turns to see them. And I have a similar idea, because I am firmly convinced that in Mexico there is that same niche for regional. He tried it in his own haphazard way, Interjet with the Sukhoi, it was clearly the wrong plane. Then they started competing where they weren't called. But if they had remained faithful to that idea of a market that is willing to pay a little more to fly point to point. Exact. Where the big girls, due to the type of planes they have, can only offer outsourced flights, these friends can offer daily flights and could find a super interesting fact in Mexico. So, glad you brought it up. You have to follow them closely. I believe that Bris has a very outstanding future. They started with a little flight as you say, but. It's how he has done it. And they are going to follow him to Puerto Vallarta. The same always little by little, little by little and when you turn around they are already there. Exact. Hey, speaking of foreign airline issues, how did this matter of the famous wetlist end? In fact, the Volaris one ended on January 12, but I was still alive or was already going to what. We also know at the end of last year, around September, October, the permission that the Mexican Aeronautical Authority had granted them to operate with foreign crews, leased, wet airplanes ended. And well, you see, the pilots' union, I noticed they were very happy, they were celebrating the news. That's good, because well, I criticized it in one of the podcasts we had in season 1, I mentioned that to me it was a true misrepresentation of the understanding of how the rule or law was structured and they were breaking it, giving it authorization for the benefit of the public and the viability of these two companies. Both alive and well, the truth is over, I hope it doesn't happen again. And I hope it doesn't happen again because they don't have the need again, because if they have it again they will ask for it again and here they will give it to them again. I partially, sorry to interrupt you, I partially agree with you. I think it is very categorical to say that I hope not. Never repeat yourself. Let it not be repeated as it happened in a forced, controversial way. It is a model that is increasingly working in the world. I mean, analyze what is happening in Argentina, for example, today many of these Avio n Express planes are flying and others in Brazil are already starting to operate Avio n Express ones. It is a very smart way to compensate for seasonalities. You know that in Europe winter is very hard, there is plenty of capacity. They can export that capacity to other latitudes, in the case of Argentina, for example, which is summer, where that offer is needed. We must find, let's say, the calibration of the model that works for all of us. As a network planner, let's say, that I have followed for so many years, for me it is a great lever. I understand that you have to take care of the other aspects. But I think that a happy medium, as has also been done in the past, I mean, the same and not Polo and Polo, but as for example, from what you mentioned, it immediately came to mind when the winter season, I don't know, so many airplanes in Europe, like when Aerome xico brought, the Transabia, but it brought them without the crew. So perhaps an installed capacity of first-level pilots trained for this, because here in Mexico, the truth is, the training, the maintenance, well, the safety record that Mexico has, the truth is enviable. It is enviable, more for the airlines themselves than for the supervision of a formal authority, but yes, it really is enviable. There are the pilots. The problem is that there are no airplanes, whoever has them has them, complete with crew. And that's where he hangs us. It's where business models collided. Yes, but also, as I said, it can be done in a planned manner, as it has been. Done, you can make it cyclical and maybe you enter into a scheme where you say, hey, we make a kind of hybrid where part of your crews come in with me, I'll give you the planes. I think there is. Controversial, controversial, it is a very cool topic, but hey, as you say, if it happens again, let it be in a concerted, constructive, nondisruptive and planned way. That since we are very super specialists here, that suddenly it comes out and that's it and. But I would defend, let's say, the concept, respecting the framework, but the concept seems to me to have many merits. And Viva scored a home run, I mean, anyway, when Viva came out with the X Ben Express planes, they scored a home run because it seemed like they broke up. A paradigm, perhaps saved viability. Not only that, I think they turned it around, she positioned herself as the greatest heroine in Mexico. Volaris took the further route. Perhaps it seemed more reasonable at that time to say well, I'll stop my planes, send them to the desert, while I can fix their engines. Viva left almost immediately, it gained a market share that today Volaris has not been able to recover. And the controversy would lie in the fact that they did it, they did achieve it too, but violating the law as we know it. But if the FAC tells you, hey, here is your certificate and I am the operator, I have the holy blessing, I am not breaking the law. But that's why I think it is. A topic, I believe it is a topic that should be done in an orderly manner and not just predictable, in a flash, come on, let's go and I'll take advantage of it. Framed within something that everyone leaves alone. I think that's the point and. That obviously helps the consumer. Now, the operations where we know did not have any type of disruption, there was none. Kind of a security incident, it worked pretty well. In that sense it worked well. But hey, here everyone defends it. We agree that we disagree. It's correct, totally. Well, perhaps with that we can conclude this conversation. This conversation. And well, thank all the public who listen to us and now see us and know us. I hope you're not scared, you're not. They are scared or very excited. And well, just to tell you that in our next podcasts, in our next editions we will introduce new ways of transmitting information. We are not going to say what it is or. When, because surprise, we are also reinventing ourselves. We are reinventing ourselves because I believe that. Staying static is the worst thing that can happen. I believe that we can tell people that this will be a modality that we will repeat with certain frequency, that we will also finally be having guests and that we will also continue with the model that gave us such good results of the simply audio podcast. And if we are here in this second season it is because we have received very good feedback and we are very grateful. Exactly, that was kind of my point for the closing, to thank those who follow us on social networks, they are asking us all the time and when is the next episode coming out? They have proposed many very interesting topics to us, we have them stored there, we will have to develop them and we will all listen to them and. Everything they are always sending us. We see it and that in some way we are growing and learning together and that this goes a long way. And thank you very much, really. Thank you very much and see you in 15 days. Thank you. Thank you, thank you.